Battle.net - English Forums -> Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch queen?

Archerofaiur

USEast

0. Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch queen? 09/10/2009 09:59:25 AM PDT

quote reply

Hi Karune!

Teamliquid recently release a article that claims that 1 hatch queen is almost impossible to beat do to the economic advantage and denying scouting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101195

We were curious how Terran or Protoss should deal with a zerg 1hatch queen build.

"Blizzard will never add race specific macro mechanics no matter how many long winded essays you write."
-A Woefully Mistaken BNet Troll

Georgetown University School of Medicine '13

Karune

Blizzard Poster

1. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 10:51:32 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Hi Karune!

Teamliquid recently release a article that claims that 1 hatch queen is almost impossible to beat do to the economic advantage and denying scouting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101195

We were curious how Terran or Protoss should deal with a zerg 1hatch queen build.

There is also an article here which states a few of my thoughts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510

Additionally, the 1hatch queen build is strong, but relatively easy to stop if you know this is a potential strategy on the field.

These are just a few strategies I use and by no means the only strategies I've seen used:

With Terran, you will naturally want to block your choke point. This in itself will easily stop fast Zerglings, as you can use Marines to fire upon enemies from a cliff (since they don't have LoS, just make sure you keep those pesky Overlords at bay, which is relatively easy as well). SCVs do an excellent job of repairing much faster than Zerglings can do damage at this early of a stage. Hydralisks on the other hand pose a bit more problems, but can still be handled by a group of Marines behind supply depots or even a bunker if it is needed. Terran choke points are quite difficult to break at the moment and while your enemy expends resources determined to break it, I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand).

With Protoss, the proposed Zerg strategy is a bit more viable and it takes a little more skill to defend against it. For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s).

Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options.

Of course both strategies require micro, which is intentional - with an Overlord scouting and giving LoS, Hydralisks can be very potent. The 1 hatch queen strategy is quite capable, but not overpowering.

Hope this was useful - though you can expect lots of things to still change and be changed throughout beta.

Zerg's were mentioned as the 'weaker' race in a developer interview not because of their early game, but their mid game. In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example.

Archerofaiur

USEast

2. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 10:58:55 AM PDT

quote reply

Wow thanks karune! That was such a great post :)

I realize that allot may change due to balance but explaining how each race responds to certain build orders really shows how much thought and care the developers are putting into SC2.

[ Post edited by Archerofaiur ]

"Blizzard will never add race specific macro mechanics no matter how many long winded essays you write."
-A Woefully Mistaken BNet Troll

Georgetown University School of Medicine '13

Archerofaiur

USEast

5. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 11:27:47 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Karune do you also have any opinions gameplay balance in Bungie's new upcoming shooter Halo 3:ODST? With the exclusion of shields and dual wield amongst several other balance changes, players will find the themselves traversing the same maps. How do you think gameplay will be impacted and teamwork strategies will shift to different tactics?

Spartans were overpowered. I am glad Bungie nerfed them to ODSTs.

"Blizzard will never add race specific macro mechanics no matter how many long winded essays you write."
-A Woefully Mistaken BNet Troll

Georgetown University School of Medicine '13

Zergish

Europe

9. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 11:46:48 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:

There is also an article here which states a few of my thoughts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510

Additionally, the 1hatch queen build is strong, but relatively easy to stop if you know this is a potential strategy on the field.

These are just a few strategies I use and by no means the only strategies I've seen used:

With Terran, you will naturally want to block your choke point. This in itself will easily stop fast Zerglings, as you can use Marines to fire upon enemies from a cliff (since they don't have LoS, just make sure you keep those pesky Overlords at bay, which is relatively easy as well). SCVs do an excellent job of repairing much faster than Zerglings can do damage at this early of a stage. Hydralisks on the other hand pose a bit more problems, but can still be handled by a group of Marines behind supply depots or even a bunker if it is needed. Terran choke points are quite difficult to break at the moment and while your enemy expends resources determined to break it, I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand).

With Protoss, the proposed Zerg strategy is a bit more viable and it takes a little more skill to defend against it. For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s).

Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options.

Of course both strategies require micro, which is intentional - with an Overlord scouting and giving LoS, Hydralisks can be very potent. The 1 hatch queen strategy is quite capable, but not overpowering.

Hope this was useful - though you can expect lots of things to still change and be changed throughout beta.

Zerg's were mentioned as the 'weaker' race in a developer interview not because of their early game, but their mid game. In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example.

Karune, could you address the actual problem, which is the inability to determine whether the Zerg is powering or massing (Zerglings prevent any worker scouting due to greatly improved pathing and Creep bonus) that causes T and P players to overly defend?

"i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position

ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or

did i not comprehend/read properly?" - dcberkeley

"It doesn't address the fact that zerg can power up.

All it stated was. "If the T/P turtles they won't lose" "When they get to the mid-game they win."

Except with the abilitiy to mass drones, won't the Z have too large of an economy before t/p can push? Like, after the first set of lings with speed to deny scouting, the zerg can get 2 bases running for long enough to be weaker in mid game, but throw enough weak units and you still beat the better army.

I'm sure he knows best, but I would've liked it more if he spoke about how it opens up options not just the ability get a large rush." - randombum

"I don't understand. The poster specifically asks about the economic advantage from queen unit/drone powering and the difficulty to scouting Zerg, yet he answers how to block a Zergling rush. This does not help at all." - zatic

Humpinghydra

USWest

12. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 04:04:33 PM PDT

quote reply

Im pretty sure this goes down as the best Karune reply of all time. That my friends, is what an excellent community manager does. (unfortunately this is his first time that hes surpassed the "good" level of posting)

[ Post edited by Humpinghydra ]

Shiladie

USWest

13. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 04:18:51 PM PDT

quote reply

Ahh, thank you Karune for spelling out the terran one, I didn't get enough experience at PAX to be able to write it up very well.

On the scouting side of things, it may be needed to do the wall-in like suggested above, the same as you have to do it in BW vs a zerg. And once you get scanner you get your free scouting to know what the zerg did in that time.
Protoss is the same, as they can go fast stargate and get a pheonix, the exact same as they do in BW to get a corsair out to scout the zerg base.

I think this all may end up fixing itself once the timings are learned better and the other races know when they can switch techs/push/pressure a lot better.

Karune

Blizzard Poster

14. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 05:17:50 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:

I thought Nullifiers were now known as Disruptors?

Correction, yes, they are Disruptors. Old habits die hard.

Q u o t e:

Karune, could you address the actual problem, which is the inability to determine whether the Zerg is powering or massing (Zerglings prevent any worker scouting due to greatly improved pathing and Creep bonus) that causes T and P players to overly defend?

"i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position

ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or

did i not comprehend/read properly?" - dcberkeley

"It doesn't address the fact that zerg can power up.

All it stated was. "If the T/P turtles they won't lose" "When they get to the mid-game they win."

Except with the abilitiy to mass drones, won't the Z have too large of an economy before t/p can push? Like, after the first set of lings with speed to deny scouting, the zerg can get 2 bases running for long enough to be weaker in mid game, but throw enough weak units and you still beat the better army.

I'm sure he knows best, but I would've liked it more if he spoke about how it opens up options not just the ability get a large rush." - randombum

"I don't understand. The poster specifically asks about the economic advantage from queen unit/drone powering and the difficulty to scouting Zerg, yet he answers how to block a Zergling rush. This does not help at all." - zatic

Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.

Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention.

Powda

Level: 1

Gateway: Lordaeron

15. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/10/2009 08:28:01 PM PDT

quote reply

Where did all the TL fans go from the other thread? Do you feel dumb yet?

Thx for clearing up what everyone who has played the game was trying to tell the nay sayer, TL fanboys.

Megaaa

Level: 1

Gateway: Azeroth

16. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/11/2009 08:42:43 AM PDT

quote reply

Nice blues!!!!!

The TL guys played like 2 days and think that they know the game bether then a guy that plays for the last 2 years.

Beyond that, the real balance ll be on beta.

BRASIL ROXXX!!!!

Lykos

USEast

17. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/11/2009 10:15:38 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Originally posted by Karune [Blizzard Poster]

Correction, yes, they are Disruptors. Old habits die hard.

Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.

Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention.

I believe they also improved upon scouting tremendously by not blacking out the entire map at the start. Instead they just dim it out a shade darker than what it will be after you explore and leave an area. I don't like how it's so dark and unknown in new games. You don't always know where all the expos are for you to check regularly unless you simply follow your worker around to find out if you are near a cliff or ramp or have precision mouse clicking.

http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm

Nexus1g

USWest

18. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/11/2009 11:45:48 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:

I thought Nullifiers were now known as Disruptors?

It will henceforth be known as the Unit Formerly Known as Nullifiers.

How to avoid looking like a moron: Your is possessive. You're is a contraction. "A lot" is two words. Their is possessive. They're is a contraction. There is a is an adverb and is as opposed to here.

Moebius_string

USWest

19. Re: Karune: How does T or P counter 1hatch qu 09/11/2009 11:50:46 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Where did all the TL fans go from the other thread? Do you feel dumb yet?

Thx for clearing up what everyone who has played the game was trying to tell the nay sayer, TL fanboys.

The stupid f@cks at tl are under the impression that because they know SC1 inside and out, they fully understand SC2 from playing relatively few games. Guy from another site comes to their site and tells them their stupid- and he was right-LoL.

[ Post edited by Moebius_string ]

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