Battle.net - English Forums -> SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009

Klszx

Europe

0. SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/21/2009 11:29:44 PM PDT

quote reply

It seems that in the Blizzcast'8 version of SkillTree interface was a lot more skills per tree than in the BlizzCon'09 version

Blizzcast 8 version: http://diablo3.net.ua/galerydata/blizzcast8-d303.jpg
Blizzcon 2009 ver.: http://www.diablo3.net.ua/images/misk/blizzcon-2009-skilltrees-demo2.jpg

... why cut so many skills out from the game? :(

Diablo3.net.ua - Russian/Ukrainian D3 community

Thafeenix

USEast

1. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/21/2009 11:44:01 PM PDT

quote reply

from what ive read and seen it seems that:

they wanted to slim down the trees to get rid of filler. they also combined or merged certain ones in order to make them more desirable and manageable. they are trying to avoid what happened in D2 where players were forced to spend a lot of wasted skill points as prerequisites solely in order to get to more potent abilities.

Ghede

Europe

2. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/21/2009 11:44:55 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
It seems that in the Blizzcast'8 version of SkillTree interface was a lot more skills per tree than in the BlizzCon'09 version

Blizzcast 8 version: http://diablo3.net.ua/galerydata/blizzcast8-d303.jpg
Blizzcon 2009 ver.: http://www.diablo3.net.ua/images/misk/blizzcon-2009-skilltrees-demo2.jpg

... why cut so many skills out from the game? :(

You do realise that they are skills from completely different heroes, yes? It's quite a possibility that the barbarian was more complete in terms of skills than the monk is.

It would be a much more compelling question if you were comparing skill trees from the same class.

Targetgamer

Europe

3. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 02:56:25 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
You do realise that they are skills from completely different heroes, yes? It's quite a possibility that the barbarian was more complete in terms of skills than the monk is.

It would be a much more compelling question if you were comparing skill trees from the same class.

It doesn't matter, there are a LOT more skills per character class. From about 50 per class (only Wiz and Barb) after BlizzCon 2008 to 30 per class in 2009.

More info about the changes here:

http://www.diablowiki.net/Skill#Development

The idea is that they have removed a big chunk of the passive skills (http://www.diablowiki.net/Passive_skill), since they don;t really bring that much to the game anyway, and the mechanics they do bring, the team can add in other ways.

Reading about Signature Skill (http://www.diablowiki.net/Signature_skill) can be useful as well. They define the classes, and Blizzard obviously want to keep close to the signature traits of each class for all skills.

Personally, I am not really THAT bothered with the skill number. I am sure they will balance in either way...

All thing Monky: DiabloWiki.net/Monk
/Barbarian_skills & /Witch_Doctor_skills & /Wizard_skills

No1 SC2 source:
StarcraftWire.net

Klszx

Europe

4. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 03:25:06 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:

from what ive read and seen it seems that:

they wanted to slim down the trees to get rid of filler. they also combined or merged certain ones in order to make them more desirable and manageable. they are trying to avoid what happened in D2 where players were forced to spend a lot of wasted skill points as prerequisites solely in order to get to more potent abilities.

Yes i know, and to fix this they made this new system when you need to spend 5,10,15,20 skillpoints in to the tree to unlock more skills 'all over all 3 trees' in it with no(or much less) prerequisite skills this time. Thou you right, they could try to merge some skills to make them more potent and useful, and its cool, but it also can provoke lesser possible skillbuilds variety.

Q u o t e:

You do realise that they are skills from completely different heroes, yes? It's quite a possibility that the barbarian was more complete in terms of skills than the monk is.

It would be a much more compelling question if you were comparing skill trees from the same class.

I understand that this is different classes and that they can be more or less completed design-wise, but if you look at the blizzcon'09 screenshots you will see that there is no more place for 4th column of skills in each tree .. and no 7th row either...

I know that "more" not always = "better" and that its Work In Progress, so everything can be in or out at any moment of time before release, it even can be saved for future addons for instance... but its just a little bit sad to see this kind of cut, and i would love to know at least what kind of thoughts droved dev's to make this kind of changes

Diablo3.net.ua - Russian/Ukrainian D3 community

Bashiok

Blizzard Poster

5. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 10:37:34 AM PDT

quote reply

When we changed the trees from each tree only unlocking tiers within itself, to the side-by-side approach where points in any tree would unlock the entire next tier in all trees, we could obviously then get rid (merge) a lot of the passive skills. So we then don't need that many skills, don't need as many spaces, and the trees shrink in size. Nothing was lost, just that the redundant passive skills were removed. Nothing to worry about, the number of actual active skills is the same.

edit: It should be noted that the Monk and Barbarian obviously don't have the same amount of skills shown, but the OP was referring to the number of places skills could exist. The actual size of the trees.

[ Post edited by Bashiok ]

Swordadpt

USEast

6. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 10:51:48 AM PDT

quote reply

That's very interesting Bash, I'm glad to hear that a lot of the redundancies have been taken care of. From the original tree vs. the new one, a lot of people probably didn't immediately notice just how much of the trees were just passives that affected skills rather than actual skills I'd bet.

Oh, btw, does anyone know if that acid skill actually did transition from the wizard over to the witch doctor?

The slanted eyes, so unearthly a gray color that they seized the attention of all who looked into them. Yet almost immediately those same eyes repelled, for in them Kentril sensed his own mortality.

The_architect

Europe

7. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 10:58:10 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
That's very interesting Bash, I'm glad to hear that a lot of the redundancies have been taken care of. From the original tree vs. the new one, a lot of people probably didn't immediately notice just how much of the trees were just passives that affected skills rather than actual skills I'd bet.

Oh, btw, does anyone know if that acid skill actually did transition from the wizard over to the witch doctor?

It did.

Bashiok

Q u o t e:
On the wind a shout
The barbarian strikes down
Flesh renders from bone

Silvast

USEast

8. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 12:49:32 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
When we changed the trees from each tree only unlocking tiers within itself, to the side-by-side approach where points in any tree would unlock the entire next tier in all trees, we could obviously then get rid (merge) a lot of the passive skills. So we then don't need that many skills, don't need as many spaces, and the trees shrink in size. Nothing was lost, just that the redundant passive skills were removed. Nothing to worry about, the number of actual active skills is the same.

edit: It should be noted that the Monk and Barbarian obviously don't have the same amount of skills shown, but the OP was referring to the number of places skills could exist. The actual size of the trees.

I was wondering, with this side-by-side approach and the fact that the tiers are not limited within a skill tree, is there any significance to the trees other than categorization? In other words: are skill trees just there for grouping skills that have the same “style” (for lack of a better word) or do they impact somehow gameplay?

Ordo et Progressus

Cpslostudent

USWest

9. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 12:56:59 PM PDT

quote reply

If +skills were not being avoided, there would be a possibility of +skills by "tree."

An interesting implication of trees merely being categorical groupings without any sort of gameplay impact might be an avoidance of issues of underpowering that we saw in D2's Bi-Elemental Sorceresses.

Whoever created the Diablo spambots need to have their baby-makers taken from them.

2337

Europe

10. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 01:47:06 PM PDT

quote reply

Was this the reason why the Barbarian's "Death Proof" vanished?

pwned

World_ablaze

USWest

11. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 02:09:08 PM PDT

quote reply

Am I misunderstanding Bashiok?

The way he says it makes it seem like no skills have been lost, but he says skills have been merged and taken out. Maybe to him passive skills aren't considered skills? All i know is that the more skills, boring or not, the better. If there's only a few then there's not many customization options, and if there isn't many and you can max them all out, then there goes the idea of having multiple builds. I wish they would finalize a skill system so i could be at ease lol. I want to know that the skill system is deep, and that respecs wont be overused. Once that day comes, i will be 100 percent sure Diablo III will be amazing.

Dolomaticus

USEast

12. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 02:24:52 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Am I misunderstanding Bashiok?

The way he says it makes it seem like no skills have been lost, but he says skills have been merged and taken out. Maybe to him passive skills aren't considered skills? All i know is that the more skills, boring or not, the better. If there's only a few then there's not many customization options, and if there isn't many and you can max them all out, then there goes the idea of having multiple builds. I wish they would finalize a skill system so i could be at ease lol. I want to know that the skill system is deep, and that respecs wont be overused. Once that day comes, i will be 100 percent sure Diablo III will be amazing.

I think you are also forgetting the one thing that is the wildcard that affects the skills: The Rune system.

From what I read so far, there is 5 different types/ levels ((Cant remember how it was worded)) that can also effect the skills and change them. The devs I think are trying to be careful cause having redundant skills that runes can accomplish and vicea versa is a pitfall. Having more is good, IF it makes sense and not useless/redundant. Just adding skills cause you want more skills leads to filler junk that almost nobody will touch.

Bashiok

Blizzard Poster

13. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 03:04:41 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Am I misunderstanding Bashiok?

The way he says it makes it seem like no skills have been lost, but he says skills have been merged and taken out. Maybe to him passive skills aren't considered skills? All i know is that the more skills, boring or not, the better.

It kind of seems like a ton of different options would be good, I know, but more options doesn't actually mean more customization. Sometimes it can mean less.

We want to make each skill, passive or active, as sexy as possible. Doing that means making each one useful and desirable in their own way. They don't overlap, their use and appeal is specific and easily understood. Maybe not to every player all the time, there still need to be specific appeals to what a player wants their character to play like, but a bunch of filler would only create an illusion of options.

What would happen is there would be a few paths to take that avoided the skills that just aren't that great, and so essentially all that filler might as well not exist. These are Diablo skill trees, every skill you use comes from spending points, we don't want to weigh the whole thing down with a bunch of passives.

There is such a thing as complexity through simplicity and I think that's something we strive for in all areas of the game.

Q u o t e:
and if there isn't many and you can max them all out, then there goes the idea of having multiple builds.

Being able to max out every active skill or even coming close would defeat an enormously huge portion of character build customization. That won't be the case. You could essentially be a jack of all trades of course, a point or two in everything, but High Heavens forbid you meet up against someone who has built themselves to specialize in a few key abilities.

Q u o t e:
I wish they would finalize a skill system so i could be at ease lol. I want to know that the skill system is deep, and that respecs wont be overused. Once that day comes, i will be 100 percent sure Diablo III will be amazing.

Hah, me too, but it keeps getting better so I'm wouldn't want it to be rushed. Character customization as a whole will be deep, and it's many systems working in concert. The skill system of course being the backbone. And respecs are intended to be pretty rare/valuable.

Acidchunk

USEast

14. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 03:08:47 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
We want to make each skill, passive or active, as sexy as possible.

Well, I'm turned on.

World_ablaze

USWest

15. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 03:16:52 PM PDT

quote reply

Thanks Bashiok for giving a response. I am glad to hear that the general idea of yours is good in my eyes haha. With the skill system being arguably the most important aspect (gear is probablly first, but both are absolutely needed) of diablo, its nice to hear that blizzard is thinking very hard about the system.

Aejis

USEast

16. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/22/2009 03:56:38 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
And respecs are intended to be pretty rare/valuable.

This right here.

Klszx

Europe

17. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/23/2009 01:28:34 AM PDT

quote reply

Ok 1 last question about skilltrees/respecs:

We can unlock last tier of skills at lvl 25, can we then say at lvl 30 respec 1st tier skills and throw them in the last tier? if so then it seems that there can be a situation when we use only 1 or 2 last tier of skills cause they will have those 20-25 required points in them ... or not? =)

P.S. Its just a theory, i understand that there can be very useful and must have skills in tier 1-3 to

Ah sorry, missed the "And respecs are intended to be pretty rare/valuable" - then question are closed

[ Post edited by Klszx ]

Diablo3.net.ua - Russian/Ukrainian D3 community

The_architect

Europe

18. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/23/2009 11:06:50 AM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Ok 1 last question about skilltrees/respecs:

We can unlock last tier of skills at lvl 25, can we then say at lvl 30 respec 1st tier skills and throw them in the last tier? if so then it seems that there can be a situation when we use only 1 or 2 last tier of skills cause they will have those 20-25 required points in them ... or not? =)

P.S. Its just a theory, i understand that there can be very useful and must have skills in tier 1-3 to

Ah sorry, missed the "And respecs are intended to be pretty rare/valuable" - then question are closed

Also, I would assume, having WoW in mind, that you will only be able to respec by either cleaning all of your tree and adding the points again or taking points from the last tier and backwards. You cannot ever take points from lower tiers if they are needed to unlock the upper ones, imo.

I also think that for the release there will be a 30points tier 7 row that has just not yet been shown to us.

Bashiok

Q u o t e:
On the wind a shout
The barbarian strikes down
Flesh renders from bone

Tesmond

USEast

19. Re: SkillTrees - Blizzcast'8 vs Blizzcon'2009 09/25/2009 05:27:03 PM PDT

quote reply

Thanks for the reply Bash, I asked a similar question a month ago but never got it answered. Cool!

Forum > Diablo III > General