Battle.net - English Forums -> Wicker Men?

Daclub

USEast

0. Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 08:39:49 AM PDT

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In a breakdown of one of the panels at Blizzcon, I read that the Witch Doctor mongrel skill originally was going to summon a wicker man. It that true?

I hope this skill somehow finds its way into the final game. I remember hearing that the Witch Doctor could no longer enchant his mongrels with the flaming skull attack. What do you do with a wickerman? you set him on fire, of course, so I hope they are planing to keep the wickerman in some form. Why else would they remove such a cool feature from the mongrel? Perhaps to move it to another summoned creature?

Plus, I've always thought wickermen were somewhat creepy. Somehow people always end up inside them as they're getting burned, and I think it would fit the Witch Doctor back story, too.

Kathars1s

USWest

1. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 09:59:40 AM PDT

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They plan on keeping the witch doctor mongrel enchant. They had to remove it for the blizzcon demo because they were having problems with the way it was implemented.
Watch the 6 part Q&A panel at blizzcon and they explain it in detail.

I do kindof agree with the wickerman thing. Though I would want it to be an enemy. Easy to burn and all that. Definitely found them creepy.

Cpslostudent

USWest

2. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 10:06:33 AM PDT

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As I recall, the panel suggested that a great deal of your ability to customize your mogrels would be based on the rune system, which they could not incorporate into the demo at this point.

I'm not sure what they meant by that. Maybe equipping a certain rune on your active summon mongrel skill allows you to set them on fire or something, while another rune would let change up how the detonation skill worked when used on them. Who knows?

Whoever created the Diablo spambots need to have their baby-makers taken from them.

Swordadpt

USEast

3. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 10:34:05 AM PDT

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Wicker Man idea aside.... I would love to see the original "elemental" skill from Diablo 1 come back in some form. I mean come on.... A man made out of fire that runs into targets? What's not to like? It was like a homing fireball only cooler looking.

The slanted eyes, so unearthly a gray color that they seized the attention of all who looked into them. Yet almost immediately those same eyes repelled, for in them Kentril sensed his own mortality.

The_architect

Europe

4. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 12:13:01 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Wicker Man idea aside.... I would love to see the original "elemental" skill from Diablo 1 come back in some form. I mean come on.... A man made out of fire that runs into targets? What's not to like? It was like a homing fireball only cooler looking.

A burning pet that runs towards enemies has the same effect. A kind of Wicker Man enemy, as was mentioned above, that runs against you to catch you on flame, more or less like a Lunatic and its explosion, would be cool though.

I assume that allowing all the WDs to enchant the mongrels with all the ways possible would make each WD less unique. By indexing different mongrel enchants to runes, you are distinguishing again your WD from the WD next to you.

One will enchant his mongrels with fire, another with poison, that will bring even more graphical variety to the game.

Bashiok

Q u o t e:
On the wind a shout
The barbarian strikes down
Flesh renders from bone

Bashiok

Blizzard Poster

5. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 12:34:39 PM PDT

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First thing's first, the mongrel is now (or again) known as the Zombie Dog. It was the name that was used when the idea was first proposed and all the way through development. Calling it a mongrel was kind of confusing because everyone was so used to calling it a zombie dog for so long, no one remembered to call it a mongrel (dune thresher and fallen imp suffer from it as well to a degree). The name zombie dog doesn't need to be lore-fied really. It describes the skill perfectly, so why not use it?

So anyway, right, the fire and poison/locust enhancements for the zombie dogs was removed. It was a cool idea but it just wasn't really panning out to be anything meaningful. It was sort of confusing as to why you would be switching between fire and poison, was it to keep an additional DoT active, or maybe there would be tactical reasons for it? But it just wasn't really jiving in a way that made sense for the rest of the game as it all came together more. It wasn't shaping up to be a meaningful or fun decision to make on-the-fly. And if you didn't happen to spec into the skills that would empower the mongrels in different ways, what then? You're just constantly refreshing a fire DoT on them? To what end? It seemed more and more that a decision that was made at the base skill, either through spending points in another skill (passive potentially), or using particular runes to alter the zombie dogs, made the most sense.

I haven't spoken to the designers about it, so I could be way out of line, but I think the potential for passives that affect all "summoned zombies" is definitely there as there are quite a bit more of them that exist now. The gargantuan, zombie charger, wall of zombies, grasp of the dead, and then the zombie dogs of course.

Sharkull

USEast

8. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 01:08:51 PM PDT

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Fire could be instant damage vs. poison being DoT... but I'm sure you've already thought of that.

J.5

USEast

9. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 01:17:13 PM PDT

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Fire could do more damage over time but also hurt the dogs. Fire could leave trails of fire on the ground for monsters to walk over. Fire could make other things catch on fire, but then the disease would be the same thing. Fire could give thorns-like damage. Disease could slow enemies down. Disease could have a chance to stun enemies. Disease could have a drawback like slowing the dogs down while having the benefit or spreading disease.

That's just what I could come up with as I was typing this. If I spent maybe 15 minutes on it, I could probably come up with something interesting. It's kind of sad they give up on a cool feature like that just because initially there was no real difference between enchanting dogs with fire and enchanting them with disease.

Bashiok

Blizzard Poster

10. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 01:33:13 PM PDT

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It's not an issue of coming up with various ways the effects could work, it's the issue of why is it interesting or fun to switch between the two? Why/when/how would I choose to set my dogs on fire versus poisoning them, and most importantly! could it be done accurately enough so that it actually makes a difference?

"Ok I'm a firebomb WD.
Firebombing, firebombing... Oh sweet, my zombie dog lit on fire and is doing extra damage/trail of fire/etc etc
Firebombing, firebombing. Yup, he's still on fire and doing all that stuff.
Still on fire.
Always on fire since I use firebomb so much.
... still on fire.
This might as well be a passive."

Repeat the above for locust swarm.

"Ok I have firebomb AND locust swarm!
Firebombing, cool he's on f... wait nope I accidentally hit him with locust swa... nope now he's on fire agai... ok they need to stop getting in my way I want them to be on fire but they... ugh.
This should just be something I can choose/switch in a more meaningful way."

[ Post edited by Bashiok ]

2337

Europe

11. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 01:37:38 PM PDT

quote reply

What about, alternatively, adding different kinds of Zombiedogs...similar to (dont slap me) the Necromancers Golems...he had like 3 or 4 kinds of golems (fire, blood, etc).

pwned

Risingred

Asia

12. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 01:57:52 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
What about, alternatively, adding different kinds of Zombiedogs...similar to (dont slap me) the Necromancers Golems...he had like 3 or 4 kinds of golems (fire, blood, etc).

Or like the necro's skeleton magi.

Gareth121

USEast

13. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 02:12:03 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
"This should just be something I can choose/switch in a more meaningful way."

Considering this need, could runes be placed directly into the Zombie Dog skill so that, when summoned, they come in with that effect already on them for their duration? It would allow the player to customize their skill and still be able to keep the action flowing. Perhaps the entrance animation could be augmented by their customization to reflect their choice?

On a side note, Zombie Dog seems kind of... well, uninspiring. This is just a matter of opinion, but wouldn't Zombie Hound sound better, or at least look better as a skill name?

The_architect

Europe

14. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 02:18:30 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
What about, alternatively, adding different kinds of Zombiedogs...similar to (dont slap me) the Necromancers Golems...he had like 3 or 4 kinds of golems (fire, blood, etc).

It is a much cooler mechanic to have generic Zombie Dogs (Bashiok I did prefer Mongrel, you guys might be used to call them Zombie Dogs, but the players are not and Mongrel was cooler imo, but if the official name is now Zombie Dogs... oh well) and be able to alter that skill then somehow through some modifiers.

To Bashiok:

(problems I see with the new solutions so you can brainstorm it if by chance you guys might have missed this ones)

Passives: If you skill on alot of passives that affect the Dogs which one will prevail? Or will the Dogs do all types of damage from the passives at the same time? It would not be too interesting if you limited passives use in this case only allowing for the choice of one of them, because then we would have 3/4(?) passives that we would be prohibited from using.

Runes: As I see it no runes give fire now, disease maybe with a Viper Rune, so I think runes might limit your Dog enchant choices. This because the five rune types are not matched with the WD's skill types and the enchants on the Dogs should imo.

[ Post edited by The_architect ]

Bashiok

Q u o t e:
On the wind a shout
The barbarian strikes down
Flesh renders from bone

Callsignapollo

USEast

15. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 02:24:53 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
First thing's first, the mongrel is now (or again) known as the Zombie Dog. It was the name that was used when the idea was first proposed and all the way through development. Calling it a mongrel was kind of confusing because everyone was so used to calling it a zombie dog for so long, no one remembered to call it a mongrel (dune thresher and fallen imp suffer from it as well to a degree). The name zombie dog doesn't need to be lore-fied really. It describes the skill perfectly, so why not use it?

So anyway, right, the fire and poison/locust enhancements for the zombie dogs was removed. It was a cool idea but it just wasn't really panning out to be anything meaningful. It was sort of confusing as to why you would be switching between fire and poison, was it to keep an additional DoT active, or maybe there would be tactical reasons for it? But it just wasn't really jiving in a way that made sense for the rest of the game as it all came together more. It wasn't shaping up to be a meaningful or fun decision to make on-the-fly. And if you didn't happen to spec into the skills that would empower the mongrels in different ways, what then? You're just constantly refreshing a fire DoT on them? To what end? It seemed more and more that a decision that was made at the base skill, either through spending points in another skill (passive potentially), or using particular runes to alter the zombie dogs, made the most sense.

I haven't spoken to the designers about it, so I could be way out of line, but I think the potential for passives that affect all "summoned zombies" is definitely there as there are quite a bit more of them that exist now. The gargantuan, zombie charger, wall of zombies, grasp of the dead, and then the zombie dogs of course.

Is it just me or did ole' Bash just completely avoid the real question at hand here??!!

Here's my two cents, for what it's worth...

1) Wicker man is much more witch-like than zombie dog and it could come off as creepy in the game if it's done correctly. (Creepy is IMO more difficult to achieve than 'horrible' or 'grotesque' so don't pass on this chance)

2) Zombie dog sounds like a necromancer skill in every way; so does zombie wall for that matter...

So, in closing, if you want to make a Witch Doctor and not a Necro Blizzard, stick to cool offbeat moves like wicker man and not generic ones like zombie dog and zombie wall. Not to be harsh but you guys are taking an ETERNITY to make this game; you should at least see things like this and fix them.... In any case I pointed it out so all you have to do is make a witch doctor instead of a necro-druid that has been called "witch doctor"

Bashiok PLEASE explain the blizz-team's rationale here b/c I can't see any reason to give the witch doctor a skill like "zombie dawg" which is generic and doesn't fit the class over a neat offbeat skill like wicker man. I would like to remind you as well that the blizz-team has expressed the need for each class to not have too many skills. So each skill matters... So zombie dawg is a total waste !!

-Peace

p.s I love you blizzard and all you create is wonderful, we are not worthy etc...

[ Post edited by Callsignapollo ]

My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/callsignHUSKER

My Blog: http://callsignhusker.wordpress.com/

-Callsign

Risingred

Asia

16. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 02:27:22 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:

Perhaps the entrance animation could be augmented by their customization to reflect their choice?

I like this.

Peaceonearth

USEast

17. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 03:26:40 PM PDT

quote reply

Ugh, I don't like the name Zombie Dog.... I, I just don't associate doggies with Diablo 3. Zombie Mongrel? Malformed Zombie? Idk. I hope the reiteration process hits this skill.

As far as everything else, it makes since. If you firebomb so much, the mongrel will do fire damage so constantly that it might as well be a passive buff. I hope they keep the animation of it being on fire though, or maybe a different animation.

EDIT:

I like this too:

Q u o t e:
Perhaps the entrance animation could be augmented by their customization to reflect their choice?

[ Post edited by Peaceonearth ]

Many have eyes, but few have seen.

Mgoss

USWest

18. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 04:01:23 PM PDT

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I don't usually complain about names or have problem with most of the things the community complains about but Zombie Dog is a terrible name. I hope the name is only for lawl and will be changed later. That's probably my only complaint for Diablo 3.

When I think of Zombie Dog I think of Resident Evil.

[ Post edited by Mgoss ]

Uszi

USEast

19. Re: Wicker Men? 08/27/2009 04:14:28 PM PDT

quote reply

Q u o t e:
Somehow people always end up inside them as they're getting burned, and I think it would fit the Witch Doctor back story, too.

And everyone successfully missed the troll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6i2WRreARo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gZfUoWZW6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEOQqnHMSMc

10/10
Bravo

[ Post edited by Uszi ]

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