World of Warcraft

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Pakkidis
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  • 0. Random Levels, no thank you!   07/18/2009 08:48:44 PM PDT
I know I am in the vast minority on this one but I simply can't stand a level that has been randomly created. I personally love levels that are designed and created that showcase the artwork and graphics. Random levels basically end up looking all the same with a different entry and exit points and most of the time nobody ends up exploring the levels anyways, they just rush to the exit point. In theory random levels are good, but I don't believe they work out so well in execution.

I haven't heard too much about this, but I am assuming their is going to be a mix between randomization and preset levels?

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Creshinibon
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  • 2. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/18/2009 09:07:51 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I know I am in the vast minority on this one but I simply can't stand a level that has been randomly created. I personally love levels that are designed and created that showcase the artwork and graphics. Random levels basically end up looking all the same with a different entry and exit points and most of the time nobody ends up exploring the levels anyways, they just rush to the exit point. In theory random levels are good, but I don't believe they work out so well in execution.

I haven't heard too much about this, but I am assuming their is going to be a mix between randomization and preset levels?



The overworld won't be random.
Dungeons for the most part will be.

And you shall be as Gods.
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Grug
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  • 3. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/18/2009 09:09:40 PM PDT
If you hate randomly generated levels, don't play Diablo. Christ.

On a serious note, the D3 levels are made room-by-room instead of the previous which was Tile-by-Tile. The result will be much better looking set-pieces and encounters instead of nonsensical combinations of doors and walls.
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Blackbelt13
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  • 4. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 12:09:34 PM PDT
I like to explore a random dungeoun every now and then to find that magic chest!
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Thisismyjam
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  • 5. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 12:21:58 PM PDT
People run to the end of random dungeons without taking time to appreciate them? You are saying that people don't race through PRESET LEVELS?!?!?
Or you just think that the artwork and graphics are gonna be totally gay in random levels? I disagree with that also
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Ubermagicks
  • Europe
  • 6. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 12:29:33 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
and most of the time nobody ends up exploring the levels anyways, they just rush to the exit point.



TOTALLY DISAGREE.

it's much more likeley they will rush to the exit when they know how the dungeon looks like

(well first time they are in the dungeon they wont know how it looks like but when you are expirienced and know how it looks like you'll just rush to the end )
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Sentioch
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  • 7. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 12:54:42 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I know I am in the vast minority on this one but I simply can't stand a level that has been randomly created. I personally love levels that are designed and created that showcase the artwork and graphics. Random levels basically end up looking all the same with a different entry and exit points and most of the time nobody ends up exploring the levels anyways, they just rush to the exit point. In theory random levels are good, but I don't believe they work out so well in execution.

I haven't heard too much about this, but I am assuming their is going to be a mix between randomization and preset levels?




Dude, did you ever play the game called "Diablo" ? Perhaps the one called "Diablo 2" ?

If you had played, you would know that this game is intended to be replayed many thousands of times over and over.

The purpose of random levels is not to make the game a whole new exciting experience each time...it is to prevent you from knowing the exact, most direct route to get to the boss on the 10,000th time that you kill him.
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Grug
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  • 8. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 02:18:16 PM PDT
Diablo without randomly generated dungeons is like Mario without Jumping.
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K0olaid
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  • 9. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 04:59:53 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
If you hate randomly generated levels, don't play Diablo. Christ.

On a serious note, the D3 levels are made room-by-room instead of the previous which was Tile-by-Tile. The result will be much better looking set-pieces and encounters instead of nonsensical combinations of doors and walls.

"HEY LOOK, THE STAIRS DOWN ARE RIGHT NEXT TO THESE STAIRS I JUST WENT DOWN"

That was always fun, I wonder what the monsters on that floor did while I just passed by?


Edit: Made it make more sense

[ Post edited by K0olaid ]



Q u o t e:
There aren't and probably won't be abilities that cost a portion of a fury ... ball. I'm going to call them fury balls. Wait ... no ... that's a terrible idea.

So dirty, Bashiok.
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Kimi_ferrari
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  • 10. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 06:19:22 PM PDT
The random generation of dungeons in D2 were structured later on mainly to discourage running one boss consistently.

Now if D3 has put in place a system which promotes exploration then there will be little need for a random map generator, but including it can help break the monotony of running the same dungeon over and over.

The design in place is random dungeons and fixed outdoor maps, which I find is a good balance. So if you want to enjoy the fixed map stick to the top, and if you get bored try out the random dungeons.

In the end the background will become white noise compared to the sheer destruction you will be creating.

If you can't go back and play D2 today because of the graphics then you are missing the whole point of the genre.
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Hyliangod
  • USWest
  • 11. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 06:41:54 PM PDT
this isn't really the same topic but i just hope they don't implement the tiny walkways (Maggot lair,arcane sanc) or the ridiculously long and annoying acts aka act3 and act5 and just keep things very fun and interesting... though i am gonna play a witch doctor i'm prolly gonna spend the first 20 mins as a barb just pounding things across the screen laughing as my family stares at me...

i rush into the fray weapons ready and teeth bared in a wicked smile, the group visibly shrinks away from my bloodcurdling battlecry as i dive into the CiCi's all you can eat buffet.
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The_banana
  • USWest
  • 12. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/19/2009 09:11:38 PM PDT
I agree. Let's remove one of the key features of Diablo. That's such an obviously stupendous idea I'm surprised Blizzard didn't think of it themselves long ago.

I'm sure they're going to do a better job with the random generation so that you don't get funny placements of doors/stairs/etc. If they don't, oh well. I'd prefer random dungeons with a bit of oddness to the layout than just playing through the same static maps all day.

If you like static maps, go play WoW?
Blizzard Entertainment
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Bashiok
Blizzard Poster
  • 13. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 11:13:40 AM PDT
We definitely agree randomized levels have some key issues with them, but they are a big part of what makes a Diablo game, and how could we not have them? The Diablo franchise is built on randomization in all forms.

You bring up some good points though, but I don't think they're issues that are insurmountable.

Randomized levels can indeed create a very generic feeling if not done well. We're working really hard to ensure that doesn't happen though. It's actually one of the reasons why our exterior layouts aren't randomized. It's extremely difficult to have wide open areas be randomized as well as interesting. Instead we have static exterior zones where the roads, towns, and edges are always in the same place. To keep some bits of random in there though we have a bunch of small, medium, and large pieces cut out of them. In those cut out pieces the game can then place the randomized "adventure" sets. They could be artistic in nature (a fountain, an abandoned cart), they could spawn extra enemies, or they could spawn quests.

Our interiors are randomized, but we do some things differently that help make them more interesting. I think we accomplish this mostly by using our interior jigsaw pieces more intelligently, building more and different types of jigsaw pieces, and also because our artists are amazing. I don't think anywhere in Diablo III are you going to think "This place is not visually interesting". The types of interior pieces do make an enormous difference, and I think we're pretty good at it now. In Diablo II for example you pretty much had a few standard square set pieces, and then a bunch of hallways. We still have those in Diablo III but we're mixing it up a lot more with more intricate and interesting 'showcase' pieces that make it seem like they're not even randomized levels.

Anyway, that's all just something you have to see to believe.

Your other point was that randomization doesn't really matter because you're just essentially rushing from the start to the end. I think you're mixing in some specific Diablo II issues with randomization issues. Without hacks (like maphack) and some unhindered mobility skills (teleport), being able to just rush through the dungeons would be considerably hindered. So I think those are really non-issues when we're talking about a different game. They're things we have to be prepared for of course, but they don't mean that randomization is a waste of effort.

All that said there are a lot of things that you can do to entice a player to be invested in each and every trip into a dungeon. Rewarding them for exploration and perseverance. It could be something as simple as having chests spawn that the player actually cares about finding! (gasp) or something as complex as an entire game-wide system based around dungeon exploration. Either way or somewhere in between, we aren't looking to create a game where rushing from entrance to exit is the most rewarding way to play.

[ Post edited by Bashiok ]

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Grug
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  • 14. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 11:23:56 AM PDT
Hear hear!

When are we gonna see some new screenshots?
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Fallingblack
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  • 15. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 11:24:35 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Hear hear!

When are we gonna see some new screenshots?


August 21st!

A.K.A. Risingred
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Acidchunk
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  • 16. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 11:25:44 AM PDT
Beat me to it ><

[ Post edited by Acidchunk ]

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All8280bcc
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  • 17. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 11:49:54 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
this isn't really the same topic but i just hope they don't implement the tiny walkways (Maggot lair,arcane sanc) or the ridiculously long and annoying acts aka act3 and act5 and just keep things very fun and interesting... though i am gonna play a witch doctor i'm prolly gonna spend the first 20 mins as a barb just pounding things across the screen laughing as my family stares at me...


Agreed when you had a character who was summon based necromancer and to a degree druid those places sucked because your beasts couldn't get around you to fight unless you happened to be in one of the opened areas.

Must play D3 NOW!!
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Fallingblack
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  • 18. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 12:02:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:


Agreed when you had a character who was summon based necromancer and to a degree druid those places sucked because your beasts couldn't get around you to fight unless you happened to be in one of the opened areas.


Yup. I have very not fun memories of being a zookeeper in the maggot lair before that patch came out which allowed you to walk through your summons.
Even now, though, it still sucks. That and the arcane sanctuary. Very cool concept, very poor execution.

A.K.A. Risingred
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Kimi_ferrari
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  • 19. Re: Random Levels, no thank you!   07/21/2009 02:52:39 PM PDT
I am interested in seeing exactly how D3 will incorporate exploration incentives in the game. The genre itself makes it a little more difficult then say a classic RPG would.

A RPG like FF promotes exploration by creating puzzles, secret items, hidden quests, and the possibility that you might never return to that dungeon/area again, which means missing out on X unless you start over.

Considering Diablo is meant to be played through many times they cannot create the "never returning" feeling that promotes exploration.

Taking the fact that there are going to be random quests. I might want to jump to the conclusion that some rarer (possibly more profitable) quests will be hidden withing the dungeon. If these more rare quest include puzzles, then you have a great combination of incentives to make a player run/teleport all over the map instead of just killing one boss over and over.

Obviously it is still to early to know how profitable quest will be compared to bosses, and whether or not quest will be tied into boss kills.

I am hoping at Blizzcon these random quests begin to be fleshed out in greater detail.

[ Post edited by Kimi_ferrari ]

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