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Q u o t e:
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Are you trying to say that Enigma should remain because Druid requires it to be useful in PvP? Because for one, that's not a good reason to keep it. For two, I'm pretty sure Druids are not 100% dependent on Teleport for them to be useful.

(If you aren't trying to say that, then that's cool too. ignore this post)

In fact, I'm willing to bet 50 fake interweb dollars on some variation of the Druid being able to stand up against all of the classes in some variation of their own.

In fact, I'd bet my e-life on it.

Currently I'm working on a Druid on US East Ladder. I'm not going to make another one on US West just so I can fight you, but once I get to a decent level for PvP, I'll be sure to post the results of whatever real fights I get into.

I don't even do that much PvP on Diablo, and I'm pretty confident there are atleast a couple guys I can kill.

I guess we'll see.

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Part of the point is that Enigma allows more variety in the number of PvP builds out there - Wind Druids, Summoner Necromancers, BvCs, and a number of other builds would have a very hard time without it, if that's even possible. But the other part is me wanting to see something new and possibly finding out whether or not this thinking is true too lol. I would love to see a working Enigmaless Wind or Fire Druid first hand. I think that fighting against a Wind Druid that does not use Enigma, and which can beat me, would be very cool.

Also, feel free to keep us posted on how your Druid on East will do. I'm also pretty confident that you can kill at least a couple of players out there, especially on Ladder, where people aren't geared up with the best like they are on NL, or have characters they have been PvP'ing with for 4+ years. But then again, you may also hit all the right notes and find a build that truly is playable regardless of whom you are facing, and maybe people would make your build a Cookie-Cutter in the future - who knows :).

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Q u o t e:
I'm in. I've had a druid like that built for about 2 years now. :)

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Sweet. Gear list? Account to contact you? Usual online times?

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Q u o t e:
I'm currently building mine as well. I used to have a wind druid on useast ladder that owned w/o enigma, this challenge will be a cakewalk assuming I get to choose the 3 opponents. Of course most ladder characters are less geared than nl, but I'll also have the opportunity to gear up much easier.... so it will be interesting how this plays out.

EDIT: I re-read your post, why in the world would you be allowing pots in this duel? That is only acceptable HC dueling, and doesn't really show an accurate dueling scenario.

I suppose I will still accept and ask for clarity at a later point.

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Sorry, I decide the opponents.

And non-mana potions are not allowed in the matches unless you want to play BM. I'm allowing the option of BM matches for those that prefer to use absorb and potions, because they feel that anything built in the game should be allowed, etc. But if you want to play GM, I'm completely fine with that too.

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Q u o t e:


You're not wrong, but I thought it was assumed the builds we listed would not use enigma.

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Yeah, the builds listed would not use Enigma. But keep in mind that most of them have their own forms of mobility...

The Sorceresses use Teleport naturally.

The Trappers use Burst of Speed. If you want to match them in FRW speed, you will need +369% FRW or more from items. The last time I calculated their FRW was back in April, and some of their gear may have changed since...

The Bowazon also has a lot of FRW. Thanks to a Harmony on switch, she can run at a speed that ordinary players can match with +378% Faster Run/Walk from just items. Even without Harmony, she still runs fast enough to desync.

The Paladins use Charge and Vigor of course. Nothing like a desync-a-din spinning invisible hammers :).

The WW'sin uses Dragon Flight if I recall correctly. I don't recall how much FRW she has, but since she also uses traps to slow down fleeing opponents, she may not need much...

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Q u o t e:
If tele amulets are allowed then this really wouldn't hurt the druid much. The thing is that tele amulets are impractical for prolonged dueling due to how rapidly you burn the charges and the insane repair cost.

A druid without any tele at all basically has no chance vs anything but melee chars/barbs.

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It may or may not hurt the Druid. I would say it would depend entirely on how the opponent uses the knowledge that the Druid uses charges. If they treat the Druid as a normal Enigma Windy for example, maybe it won't make much difference. But if the opponent decides to prolong a fight, knowing that once the Druid is out of Teleport charges he becomes a sitting duck, then it could easily change the tide of battle. As of now, most players would probably treat a Windy that uses Teleport charges as any other Windy, since chances are, they wouldn't even know that you weren't using an Enigma... but if Enigma was ever removed, and Teleport charges ever became mainstream, I'm sure many players would realize the weakness of a limited number of charges and use this weakness to their advantage...

Also, I believe the maximum number of charges that an amulet could have is something like 27? Is that really enough in some of those longer fights? Like when a Wind Druid is chasing down a 200% FCR Sorceress? And do you really want to lose inventory charm space for extra teleport amulets, and manually swap them out in the heat of battle?

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Q u o t e:
In fact, I'm willing to bet 50 fake interweb dollars on some variation of the Druid being able to stand up against all of the classes in some variation of their own.

In fact, I'd bet my e-life on it.

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you just lost your e-life then.

druids tend to get smashed by ww-assassins.

in human form, their FHR tables are t3h suck.
in wereform, they are ez prey to whirl away.

Here's an idea:

Have any character who IS using Enigma to roll over a + Teleport staff so the characters lose the Teleport skill. That or note if they use Teleport from Enigma, they forfeit the match.

On another note, depending on the player, Elemental Druids will still have an advantage because if someone gets too close, Twister spam will keep them in hit recovery mode, thus allowing Hurricane to kill them.

Do I accept the challenge? I would, only I don't do PvP.

I can already see the inherent problem with this competition if you are to decide the opponents.

D2 is more advanced then the basic ranged-magic-melee triangle, but it still is fundamentally part of the game.

So of course you will win if you simply choose my build's anti-build. If you just use trap assassin, zon, bone necro that's GG.

There is no (or at least there shouldn't be) class that can beat every other class, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with the current rules. If you are trying to see if a wind druid is plausible without teleport, then naturally wouldn't you pair it vs someone they are designed to beat such as a fire sorc, zealer, or hammerdin?

And since when did absorbs count as a cheap tactic? I have no idea what BM or GM means but when you say duel I think "no pots, no nk, no tg"

I guess I'll have to decline for now. My adaptation of the rules would be anything goes except pots, nk, and tg. And I would get to choose who I duel.

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Q u o t e:
Here's an idea:

Have any character who IS using Enigma to roll over a + Teleport staff so the characters lose the Teleport skill. That or note if they use Teleport from Enigma, they forfeit the match.

On another note, depending on the player, Elemental Druids will still have an advantage because if someone gets too close, Twister spam will keep them in hit recovery mode, thus allowing Hurricane to kill them.

Do I accept the challenge? I would, only I don't do PvP.

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The removal of Enigma is just that. - if Enigma was ever removed from 1.13, you wouldn't have the choice to use an armor that looks just like Enigma, but without the Teleport. What your suggesting is to just remove the Teleport from Enigma, which would be a fine test if you believe that only the Teleport should be removed, but I hear a lot of people complain on the forums that the whole rune word should be removed. And besides, Enigma right now is pretty damn good even without the Teleport - you get massive +Strength, +2 to Skills, massive MF for PvM, great Defense, 8% DR, etc. Builds like Smiters, which may not even need the Teleport, use Enigma almost exclusively for these extra mods...

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Q u o t e:
I can already see the inherent problem with this competition if you are to decide the opponents.

D2 is more advanced then the basic ranged-magic-melee triangle, but it still is fundamentally part of the game.

So of course you will win if you simply choose my build's anti-build. If you just use trap assassin, zon, bone necro that's GG.

There is no (or at least there shouldn't be) class that can beat every other class, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with the current rules. If you are trying to see if a wind druid is plausible without teleport, then naturally wouldn't you pair it vs someone they are designed to beat such as a fire sorc, zealer, or hammerdin?

And since when did absorbs count as a cheap tactic? I have no idea what BM or GM means but when you say duel I think "no pots, no nk, no tg"

I guess I'll have to decline for now. My adaptation of the rules would be anything goes except pots, nk, and tg. And I would get to choose who I duel.

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Yeah, you might be correct in regards with the inherent problem that you listed. All builds do have builds that they are naturally weak against, but I'm also thinking that a Enigmaless build may have some different weaknesses than the standard build. A Wind Druid that relies on minion stacking and tele-bombing may have a hard time vs Trappers, but if your FRW based, maybe you won't have such a hard time because you aren't relying on minion stacking, and you might be able to escape stunlocks more easily because your FRW speed? You may also use entirely different tactics to win your fights, such as desync'ing, so the standard counter builds may not even work vs an Enigmaless build... Right now it's just theory, so I would love to put it to the test :).

Also, absorb has always been considered BM - Bad Manners. It has always been a cheap tactic because you could simply throw on enough so your opponent can't ever do any damage against you. For example, try using a Thundergod's Vigor, x2 Wisp Projectors, and a Blackhorn's Face against a Lightning Trapper. She won't deal any damage against you - and if your already injuried, she will actually heal you. This is also why it's so easy to counter BM stacked Auradins - throw on a Thundergod's Vigor, a Dwarf Star, a Wisp Projector, and a Rising Sun and if ever drop down to 1 HP, you will be healed instantly to full health from a pulse. The same goes with any elemental based builds. If your having trouble vs Fire Sorceresses, throw on a Hotspurs, x2 Dwarf Stars, and a Rising Sun. If you have a problem against a Cold Sorceress, throw on a x4 Perfect Sapphire Monarch, Snowclash, take a sip of Thawing Potion, and use x2 Raven Frosts. However, keep in mind that using a Raven Frost is usually fine even in a GM duel, because usually one Raven Frost is not going to do anything against a Cold Sorceress that minuses 200% of your Cold Resistances, and Cannot Be Frozen is used even outside of fighting pure Cold opponents.

But like I said, I'm also allowing the option of either going BM or GM, and this is a major reason why I also decide which characters you face. If it's GM, it may really not make any difference, but if it's BM, the challenge really becomes extremely easy. Any Druid can win if they decide to play BM and choose to face only characters they could completely absorb. Heck, you could make a Normal Attack Druid that has never used any of his Skill Points and still win simply because your opponent could never kill you. Challenging? I think not.

I can agree to not using much abs gear, but if you are suggesting that cyclone armor is BM, then you've killed the build. But you've killed it because you have robbed it of a skill it is initially suppose to have, and deserves. Where as teleport is only suppose to be utilized by sorcs originally.


I don't use any cheap tactics like desynching. I just want a good duel without any manipulation of any glitches the game may have in it.

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Q u o t e:
hammerdin does not need a nigma though... so without nigma hammerdins no longer have a weakness.

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cough*ranged*cough

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Q u o t e:
I can agree to not using much abs gear, but if you are suggesting that cyclone armor is BM, then you've killed the build. But you've killed it because you have robbed it of a skill it is initially suppose to have, and deserves. Where as teleport is only suppose to be utilized by sorcs originally.


I don't use any cheap tactics like desynching. I just want a good duel without any manipulation of any glitches the game may have in it.

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By all means Cyclone Armor is perfectly fine. When I say absorb, I mean from gear only. Cyclone Armor is completely fair imo, since you can wittle it away and the Druid will either have to recast it, or get hurt. Gear absorb functions completely different.

Desynching is also perfectly fine imo, and for most players as I have never heard of anyone say that it's actually BM. Although some newer players may think it cheap, it's actually very easy to predict. It's also unavoidable when you pack FRW, or just have a lousy internet connection. My friend's Hammerdin will desynch even though he really doesn't have a whole lot of FRW and he simply uses Charge - I believe it's due to his internet connection. My characters desynch simply because they have xxx amount of FRW, and you really need that much FRW to fight effectively against casters that use Teleport. And of course, there are plenty of tricks to fight against a desynching player out there, even for Druids, such as namelocks, minions, etc.

Also, from a ingame perspective, desynching sorta makes sense, or at least how I have always imagined it. The way I see it is that your character is moving so fast that it's hard to even see him, or you think you see him in a spot but he's really some place else due to his speed. If your a fan of anime, you would know that a lot of shows use this concept. Even some games try to use this concept, like Ninja Gaiden for example.

Accidentally desync is fine, that's just lag. I was referring to things like invisible arrows and hammers. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't implying I was new with your statement since I have played since LoD was introduced. Although I haven't done any closed PvP since the end of 1.10

As to the poster above, he said a hammerdin, so I have no idea why you mentioned grief. I assume you mean using charge to make the distance, but all it takes is positioning yourself around some ponds correctly and it's GG. IF you make it to her then you have a chance, In my experience I don't see that happening to a fully IAS zon w/ faith.

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Q u o t e:
Accidentally desync is fine, that's just lag. I was referring to things like invisible arrows and hammers. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't implying I was new with your statement since I have played since LoD was introduced. Although I haven't done any closed PvP since the end of 1.10

As to the poster above, he said a hammerdin, so I have no idea why you mentioned grief. I assume you mean using charge to make the distance, but all it takes is positioning yourself around some ponds correctly and it's GG. IF you make it to her then you have a chance, In my experience I don't see that happening to a fully IAS zon w/ faith.

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Yeah, you really shouldn't worry about invisible hammers or arrows... Invisible hammers and arrows are only so because they were originally fired out of your minimap range. For example, a Bowazon could still fire invisible arrows, even legitly, if she simply fires at you from beyond the point where your character is no longer displayed on her minimap. In all honestly reailty though, this is extremely difficult to do, and would not really be possible in a real duel since she would not know where you were if you kept moving. The only real times you ever see invisible arrows hitting someone is if a Bowazon was pelting the enterance to town from a far. And as for invisible hammers, it's really the same deal... If the Hammerdin is casting a field full of hammers out of your minimap range, and you rush recklessly at him, you could be hit by invisible hammers. But most players don't allow their opponents to leave the minimap range for more than 2 seconds, so this really shouldn't be a problem...

As for the other poster's comments, I believe he's saying that a Hammerdin could just throw on a Grief and Charge/Smite the Bowazon to death, since Blessed Hammer really isn't too accurate against them. But like you said, a good Bowazon should still be able to kill a Hammerdin that uses this tactic...

Melos - just watch videos of Kiba - woof, woof !! :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tabFE8k-Y&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCrVcMEX9Ek&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXKDnWv3ipw&feature=channel_page

And more PvP videos available via his channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Wolfz666

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Q u o t e:

Accidentally desync is fine, that's just lag.

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Still using the Charge + Vigor is lame and unfair and that's why it is banned on every of PvP dueling rules that exists or ever existed. Charge itself is OK, without Vigor (but desynch can appear anyway, even if using charge with no vigor).

And invisible attacks are as OK and fine as lags like desynch are - because it is not a game bug too. Every attack can become invisible, by the way.

There was a bug connected with too big range of invisible attacks - but this bug has already been fixed together with the release of 1.11 patch.