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Metaknyght
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  • 41. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 06:48:48 PM PDT
I also miss the 20 points in a skill, but D2 had about 10 skills per tree. The D3 pic shows 18 skills on the tree. If you wanted, by level 100 you could easily max one whole tree, if you wanted, and still have 10 points left over for some early skills in other trees. You could also, pick and choose deep skills from all trees while ignoring the other skills (except the synergies, of course) in each tree, because you only need 1 point to advance.

This ties into the direction of easy skill swapping Blizzard is going with and gives you more skills to play with which equals more customization.
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  • 42. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 06:49:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:




WoW invented maximum values.


Do you prefer deep sea fishing or trolling? Im guess the latter.

We are comparing 2 games from the same company that have a lot of simularities, wouldnt make since to most people on this forum is he said its maxed like Madden 2005.
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Metaknyght
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  • 43. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 06:50:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:




WoW invented maximum values.


I never said WoW invented maximum values. I was only pointing out the similarity between the two trees.

Edit: Also, what Likeahorse said.

[ Post edited by Metaknyght ]

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Ricky927
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  • 45. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 06:58:40 PM PDT
I personally did not like the 20 skill points per skill. It was just too much. leveling 1-20 or 55-75 for 1 skill seemed extreme. I personally favor the new one, because it gives a variaty of abilities and more choices.
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  • 46. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 07:09:20 PM PDT

Q u o t e:


What you should've said is "like any other RPG".


Its maxed out like D&D legends for the xbox. Everyone who knows what im talking about please reply while quoting this post, oh... no one? It was 5. Why do i not use this as an example, BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT WOW ON A BLIZZARD FORUMS PAGE. It must be your time of the month because you are (Resident Evils score in Game Informer magazine) annoying today.

See how inconvenient that is too look that up instead of just using an example that the most people on this forum can relate to?

[ Post edited by Likeahorse ]

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Sepulveda
  • USWest
  • 47. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 07:16:39 PM PDT
you could have said "maxed at 5 like D&D" and people would have known it was 5; especially since the other poster said "maxed at 5 like wow"
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Bashiok
Blizzard Poster
  • 48. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 07:29:00 PM PDT
I should stress that what everyone was allowed to see was a behind the scenes glimpse at where the UI is now. BlizzCast specifically serves that purpose, and by showing unfinished work we take the risk of people critiquing our work before it's done. To that same effect though it's an amazing way of getting feedback, but that doesn't change that it should be understood to be unfinished work. Moving on...

The Diablo III skill tree is a skill tree and not a talent tree because you learn all of your skills from it.

You aren't given new abilities every other level from a trainer. There's no expectation that you'll have some specific ability at some level. There's no role requirements that dictate where you have to spend points to hurt monsters. The points you spend determine exactly how the character is built, how it functions, and what it's able to do.

So, people are comparing the trees for a few reasons and using these reasons as negatives. I'll try to cover them all.

1. "They look similar." Yes, they do. They're both downward expanding trees, they both have icons that you can spend points in, they both have arrows that determine expansion into other skills.

These were all features also in the Diablo II trees.

2. "It's unoriginal." I agree. It's only after 10 (?) or so working concepts of various other skill tree designs that we were able to arrive at the conclusion that this is a system that works and achieves the goals that we want to achieve (we showed those failed designs at BlizzCon btw). There's no point in trying to put in something new and complex just for the sake of originality. When people play the game will they remember that it's not new, or that it's not fun?

I want to heavily stress again on this point that the skill trees are not finished, we're still in the process of heavy iteration and experimentation.

3. "Point requirements to advance down the tree is lame." One of the main problems with the Diablo II trees was point hoarding, which was the act of holding on to all of your points until you are able to reach a skill you want to put points into. This may not be an issue to some players just because it's so easily dismissed as 'part of the game', but from a designer perspective it's a huge failure. You are giving the player a reward and they are hoarding those rewards because they have nothing enticing to spend them on. This was attempted to be remedied through a patch by introducing synergies, unfortunately they caused their own issues. World of Warcraft looking at the Diablo II trees for inspiration saw this flaw but took a different approach in solving it, instead implementing a point requirement to advance down the tree. The player now has to spend points to advance, and with that comes the ability to provide more impacting and meaningful places to spend them.

4. "Cookie cutter builds!" Again these are skill trees, not talent trees. Every single ability you can cast/use is learned through spending points in the tree. This allows, in comparison, for a huge amount of customization. Now, that doesn't escape the truth that there will always be builds considered to be the best, but that's more an issue of balance, not skill tree layout design.

Also on that point, and I've said it before, character customization is a core design goal of the game. It's one of a few, and that means that we're not going to release the game unless we're happy with the amount of customization available.

So, hopefully that touches on most of the main points being used over and over again as a reason to hate the skill tree. Once again I want to ask that you approach the game with a question rather than a statement. If you follow up "I don't like this" with "I wonder why they decided to do it that way" then we can have a conversation. If you're just making a statement the best I can do is read it. There's no way for me to comfortably reply to a post that has no intention of learning about the game.
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Bashiok
Blizzard Poster
  • 50. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 07:57:34 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Speaking of customization, there is a lot of talk (read: BAWWWWWWWW) about automatic stats around the forums and that they should be changed back.

I realize you/Jay have already stated the reasoning behind it in a previous article, but if you could kindly put the final nail in the coffin and restate those reasons plus any new ones that may have come up?


STILL!? Let it go! Ok, well, quickly - it's confusing for players, it forces us to limit skill diversity/item attributes, and the amount and type of customization it offers is neither important nor sexy. So we take away stat spending, make items have more and cooler stats, know stat minimums at a given level which allow spell diversity/balance, and then introduce new customization systems that are actually fun and engaging in creating a unique character.


Q u o t e:
If you do not wish to repeat yourself, I understand, and I do not wish for you to waste time writing a post stating this, thus I have another question making it worthwhile: Is there any possibility of an inspect feature?


Anything is possible. I think the "dump everything into a trade window" was awful, I'm sure the designers agree, and if there's a desire to look at someone else' items then there needs to be a way to do it properly.

[ Post edited by Bashiok ]

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Nithix
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  • 51. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 08:18:06 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Anything is possible. I think the "dump everything into a trade window" was awful, I'm sure the designers agree, and if there's a desire to look at someone else' items then there needs to be a way to do it properly.


Gogo Diablo Armory! Lol. Inspect would be great of course, too. Though one thing would be solved in trade windows with the new item system, you wouldn't have to play tetris in your trade window. I think the most annoying thing in D2 showing people your gear was not only clicking and dragging everything, but you had to unequip all of your potions if you really wanted to show someone your belt. The lack thereof potions should remedy this I think, though. :D Or, mainly lack of anyway.

Yay, the site made me put a new CD-Key in so now I have the Diablo avatar like I wanted... <3

[ Post edited by Nithix ]

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  • 52. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 08:18:27 PM PDT

Q u o t e:


STILL!? Let it go! Ok, well, quickly - it's confusing for players, it forces us to limit skill diversity/item attributes, and the amount and type of customization it offers is neither important nor sexy. So we take away stat spending, make items have more and cooler stats, know stat minimums at a given level which allow spell diversity/balance, and then introduce new customization systems that are actually fun and engaging in creating a unique character.



Anything is possible. I think the "dump everything into a trade window" was awful, I'm sure the designers agree, and if there's a desire to look at someone else' items then there needs to be a way to do it properly.


With the intention of time saving is it futile to post a tweak to a system that you have said is one way? Not to point myself out, but cant think of another example ATM, but like what I was trying to say about maybe yall auto pick 4 or 5 of the stats and leave the last one to us (assuming we would be getting about 6 a lvl like D2) Should we point out things we would want tweaked a bit or is everything that has been said in an interview set in stone?

(the link to the post im referring to here if you dont know what im talking about, http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=16137616672&sid=3000)

[ Post edited by Likeahorse ]

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  • 54. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 08:38:54 PM PDT

Q u o t e:


God give it a rest with the stats. They're not changing it. And you can manually place 1 stat out of 5? That's pointless.



Like i said that was just an example i was using, L2dictionary: example. and 1 out of 5 times the 99 or 100 lvls = about 100 stats in your control. Also im not totally against the auto stats just feel there is a better system out there that rings truer to D1 and D2


Q u o t e:

Basically anything that Blizzard releases is set in stone. They change very little when they actually show us it, and the auto-stats was announced so long ago you don't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting them to even glance at your suggestions for a new stat design. The game is already designed around auto-stats. They're making the final classes (if not already done them and just testing them).




Have you read your own edit?


Q u o t e:

Edit: Some things they may change, like they stated they're going to make the game a bit darker and grittier than what we initially saw back in '08, but they're not going to change something the game was designed around... Designed by gaming experts, might I add.




I was asking Bashiok how our suggestions were being dealt with. I appreciate your speculation of how they are taken, it is a good guess, but i was wondering more officially.

[ Post edited by Likeahorse ]

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Fenixstryk
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  • 55. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 08:54:03 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Like i said that was just an example i was using, L2dictionary: example. and 1 out of 5 times the 99 or 100 lvls = about 100 stats in your control. Also im not totally against the auto stats just feel there is a better system out there that rings truer to D1 and D2
Allowing 1 out of 5 points to be manually controlled brings back the same issues as before, although it's only 20% as visible as before. There will be a "best build" and if you don't follow it, your character is flawed. There was no advantage to pump Str, Dex or NRG in D2 because the stats increased melee damage, attack power and Energy by such paltry amounts, and more health was simply too valuable.

Even if they did address the issue of making Str/Dex/NRG valuable, it goes against the point of Auto Stats: shifting the focus from the menus to the loot, which is what makes Diablo (not stats, not skill trees, and not the colors).

Auto Stats is being added for the same reasons Respecs are being added: it's a convenience to the player, specifically the casual players, so they're not forced to memorize how to create their character (or unknowingly make a crappy character because they don't know any better). It levels the playing field without actually ruining anything.

Remember games where you were forced to do Dice Rolls for your stats? You don't see them any more either. This is just yet another progression in the name of fun.
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Stryderjess
  • USWest
  • 57. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 09:53:39 PM PDT

Q u o t e:


"talent tree" ain't one word.


"ain't" isn't a word either...
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2ez4k
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  • 59. Re: dont like the word "talent tree"   04/08/2009 10:34:08 PM PDT
my post got a reply? wow. either way glad the term isnt talent tree, and i know the game isnt finished.

so, the diablo3 skill tree setup is basically like d2, except better ofcourse, but same if u get down to it.




isnt it more of a root anyways.... trees dont grow down.



:::: d1 was more of a spell book thing wasnt it..? but d2 runs on skills and spells so spells is out. mayb the mage can hav a book :P like the barb doesnt hav mana

[ Post edited by 2ez4k ]

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