When I logged in this morning, I noticed a new message on the welcome screen basically saying that b.net is planning on cracking down on any kind of bot or any kind of modification program not intended to be used by the game developers (this is basically anything custom about wc3 except user-made maps).

For the record, I am not here to say that bots do not infringe on the user agreement that everyone must accept before installing the game - because they do.

I am, however, interested in why b.net is just beginning to crack down on bot usage after it has become an extremely common thing in Warcraft 3 clan channels. Channel bots and now somewhat recently, host-bots, have taken rather important roles in clans. Most importantly they have allowed the creation of competitive custom games - leagues. Although the official game doesn't provide support for custom games, I find that the custom game section has become quite an integral part of the game. Largely due to the map editor's wide range of possibilities, a great many very compelling maps have been created. One of them... namely DotA has rallied an incredible amount of players. DotA has many leagues, all centered around bots, without bots, we wouldn't have leagues for any kind of custom map.

I am somewhat curious as to what battle.net's plans to do to the bots operating these leagues. Although they do step out of the user agreement, in my opinion, B.Net is a better place for it and I know that a great number of players would agree with me. If bots must be banned, then I understand why, however, (in my opinion) doing so would greatly diminish the worth of the online portion of the game. I am certainly supporting the new ant-bot/cheating policy as far as cheating goes, but I have a hard time imagining how these league bots can be "cheating."

In any case, my opinion isn't really worth much to battle.net, I just think that bots make the game all the better and greatly enhance the clan interface as well as the custom game interface.

Any answers to my questions or comments on this new policy would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
-Archer

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Q u o t e:
what are 2nd party hacks :D

If there is a 3rd there must be a 2nd :D

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... Troll, I hope?

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Q u o t e:

... Troll, I hope?

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Just an idiot.

Take a serious look at the difference between ping bot and maphack,idiot staff.

What a totally rediculous rule it is!

I understand Blizzard's stance on this, but it really is silly. They'd better have amazing custom map and game support as well as hosting support in StarCraft 2 or third party programs will be made again.

The reason things like Warkeys and LC have been made are because of advances in technology and deficiencies in the game. Almost any modern game allows you to change hotkeys to those of your choosing in an easy-to-use interface. It doesn't make the game easier or give you an unfair advantage; it's just something that's become expected. (Adding "always show healthbars" to the game removed my need for warkeys entirely and I no longer use it. Thanks for listening to the community on that change. I hope that's also an option in SC2)

And a great number of people have fast internet connections now. Custom games being hosted at 250ms feels like molasses when so many of us are used to sub-50ms pings. All of the TDA DotA games are hosted with LC, and for good reason. The game doesn't play nearly the same without it.

So I understand the hard-line company stance, but to be honest things like LC and the DotA bot are increasing longevity of the game and increasing sales of the game, and banning accounts using those would be horrible from a business standpoint. WC3 would not still be going nearly as strongly without the strong custom game community.

Yes, banning cheating programs is important to keeping a game community vibrant, but really, closing the holes that make those cheats work in the first place should be a priority over just banning third-party apps, and I hope the stance changes for SC2. If a lot of people are using a third party app (that doesn't involve cheating), then there's probably a good reason why. Update the game to include the improvement so the app isn't needed. Add in-game custom hotkey changing and a delay selector for hosting custom games, etc.

I love Blizzard, and they consistently provide a high level of polish, and I understand wanting to control servers and IP, but it would be nice if they had a better modding/third party stance a la Valve.

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Q u o t e:
I understand Blizzard's stance on this, but it really is silly.

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That is extremely contradictory. If you understood Blizzard's stance then you would not believe it was silly.

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Q u o t e:


That is extremely contradictory. If you understood Blizzard's stance then you would not believe it was silly.

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Understanding a viewpoint doesn't mean you agree with it.

Blizzard has made it very clear that they want complete control over their products, and by making it clear that all third party apps are "outlawed" there's no gray area when they ban accounts, etc. However, that stance isn't always the best for the consumer.

So yes, I understand it quite clearly. However, Blizzard has not banned accounts for using benign third-party apps because those are usually used in such a way that gives their games longevity, e.g. DotA and LC.

I just think it's silly to benefit from third party apps but also condemn them, when it's clear there's no intention of banning the "harmless" ones. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if the distinction was officially recognized. Calling things like Warkeys, LC, banlist, etc. "hacks" just feeds into the whole "evil hacker" stereotype. They are programs that benefit the user without causing any harm to anyone.

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Q u o t e:

And a great number of people have fast internet connections now. Custom games being hosted at 250ms feels like molasses when so many of us are used to sub-50ms pings. All of the TDA DotA games are hosted with LC, and for good reason. The game doesn't play nearly the same without it.

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Last time I checked software couldn't move continents on demand; especially not script-kiddie software.

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Q u o t e:

Last time I checked software couldn't move continents on demand; especially not script-kiddie software.

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What does that have to do with anything?

WC3 games run at a 250ms delay for stability by default. Even if you ping 5ms to someone, your effective delay will be 250ms.

250ms is also a pretty significant host advantage since the host has no delay.

LC does not move continents; it just allows those with under 100ms latency to each other to play at 100ms delay instead of 250.

If you need to play with people from multiple continents, sure, use the higher delay for stability. But I'm pretty sure that's why there are different realms also.

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Q u o t e:

What does that have to do with anything?

WC3 games run at a 250ms delay for stability by default. Even if you ping 5ms to someone, your effective delay will be 250ms.

250ms is also a pretty significant host advantage since the host has no delay.

LC does not move continents; it just allows those with under 100ms latency to each other to play at 100ms delay instead of 250.

If you need to play with people from multiple continents, sure, use the higher delay for stability. But I'm pretty sure that's why there are different realms also.

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That's a purely client-side latency compensation technique; "LC" does nothing more than desynchronize clients, no different to the blatently useless Diablo II "TMC".

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Q u o t e:

That's a purely client-side latency compensation technique; "LC" does nothing more than desynchronize clients, no different to the blatently useless Diablo II "TMC".

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*sigh*

You don't know what you're talking about.

Listchecker is what a custom game host uses to host the game. It is not a client-side program; it's only used on the server by the person hosting the game. Nobody else runs listchecker except for the host. It sends updates to clients at a faster pace so the game responds to user actions more quickly. It basically ups the update rate of the server. EDIT: LC isn't actually upping the update rate; hosting the game as a LAN game is what does that. LC just sends the packets to the proper people over the internet using a different port from the game's port so that the game thinks it's a LAN game.

You can test it out for yourself very easily. All you have to do is play a game hosted with LC and without, and it's very evident that the LC game responds to your actions more quickly.

LC games are actually created as LAN games, but LC routes the game packets to the individual clients.

EDIT 2: To be exact, LC hosted games send out updates every 100ms. Normal custom games send out updates every 250ms.

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Q u o t e:

*sigh*

You don't know what you're talking about.

Listchecker is what a custom game host uses to host the game. It is not a client-side program; it's only used on the server by the person hosting the game. Nobody else runs listchecker except for the host. It sends updates to clients at a faster pace so the game responds to user actions more quickly. It basically ups the update rate of the server. EDIT: LC isn't actually upping the update rate; hosting the game as a LAN game is what does that. LC just sends the packets to the proper people over the internet using a different port from the game's port so that the game thinks it's a LAN game.

You can test it out for yourself very easily. All you have to do is play a game hosted with LC and without, and it's very evident that the LC game responds to your actions more quickly.

LC games are actually created as LAN games, but LC routes the game packets to the individual clients.

EDIT 2: To be exact, LC hosted games send out updates every 100ms. Normal custom games send out updates every 250ms.

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Client-side graphical representation does not equate to server-side state; your ignorance and limited understanding of the matter is in the way.

Client-side graphical representation does not equate to server-side state; your ignorance and limited understanding of the matter is in the way.

I understand that.

However, WC3 games like DotA wait for the server to actually complete commands like move commands. There isn't client-side prediction for those things like in some games. When I right click on a spot, it waits for a response from the server before showing the movement on the client. It doesn't start moving on the client while sending it off to the server like in some games with client prediction.

The game sending out updates every 100ms means that there are 10 ticks a second for your commands to actually show as completing and happening graphically client-side as opposed to the 4 a second during a normally hosted on b.net custom game. It has nothing to do with the framerate or the graphical representation, but is indeed more responsive and commands appear to happen more quickly once you execute them because of the smaller window between updates sent to the clients. The server state of the game should be updating at the same pace in either case, but since you see changes in the game happen more quickly you can respond more quickly.

Listchecker sends out more updates per second to every client in the game, which is the entire point. It's nothing like the Diablo 2 program you mentioned. You can respond to events in the game more quickly because you see changes more often. If you're trying to last hit or deny a creep, this becomes very important as you can tell when someone has shot the creep more quickly and get the last shot off. Not seeing it graphically for an additional 150ms is a huge difference in reaction timing. It's much less of a factor in ladder than in DotA where last hitting is extremely important.

Perhaps you and I got off on the wrong foot. I understand the mechanics, you just aren't listening to me. =( The server state is still updating just as quickly in either case, but the time window between updates for clients is reduced in the LC case, giving them the current game state more often. To the clients, the graphical representation is what matters and what in-game decisions are based off of.