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Bashiok
Blizzard Poster
  • 60. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 06:59:15 PM PDT
First off thanks for writing this, it's awesome to see some indepth analysis offered in a reasonable tone. I'm sure there have been others on this same topic, but yours happened to catch my eye.


Q u o t e:
Jay Wilson, according to the interview, stated that this helps development on items as they will be able to predict the attributes of characters at certain levels and it puts more emphasis on items giving stat points for your attribute customization.


First let me state that the interview article has an error in that "You still get attributes, and they will still be required for equipment use" is incorrect. I've already let the Diii.net guys know. There are no attribute requirements for items, that would essentially limit items to specific classes which we don't intend to do outside of actual class specific items, like the Wizard's off-hand orb for instance.


Q u o t e:
I can't think of anything else that could be considered positive, so lets go to the theoretical negatives.


You missed probably the biggest positive, and if you watch the video interview (from which the Diii.net article was written) he goes in to it a bit. (http://www.diii.net/blog/comments/diiinet-jay-wilson-video-interview/)

To quote Jay "For the most part attribute spending in Diablo II was a great way - when you didn't know how to play the game - to break your character. Most people didn't know where to put them and when they found out the answer was always kind of weird like "Put 5 points in Energy and then all the rest of the points in Vitality."

To expand on it a bit more when you don't know what you're doing you're essentially lost, and you sort of spend points how you think you might want to. When you finally have an idea of how a character should be built, stat distribution generally comes in the form of "this is exactly what you need for x build" and there's little variation. At that point it's pretty easy to remove that system and instead offload the potential build 'requirements' to something more interesting and something that's actually more engaging and fun.


Q u o t e:
The first problem that comes to mind is, character customization is exactly what made Diablo3's predecessors successful, and that's what is being hurt by the implementation of this mechanic as it takes away control from the player, essentially, dictating how they will develop their character. It was that aspect that had players coming back again and again over the years just to make a new build or try out something new and attributes were a BIG part of that.


Definitely agree. I'm going to give you a bit of a cop-out answer, but we have quite a few game systems we haven't even talked about. Those aside, I would argue that the rune system - something we have announced - adds quite a bit of customization, and in a more interesting way than attribute distribution.


Q u o t e:
The other aspect that quickly becomes apparent is the limitations of itemization for characters to use. What I mean is, because characters have pre-planned stats that when you reach the highest level, there will be item types that your character might not be able to use.
Hypothetical example; I think we can be fairly certain that the Wizard isn't going to be a strength based character by any means. If this is the case, late game, can we hope to be able to use upper tier heavy armor? If there is an item that might significantly benefit a build but is unachievable due to pre-allocated stat limitations, that is going to be severely detrimental to the game experience.


So as I already said the information in the article is incorrect, so happy happy joy joy this shouldn't be an issue at all.


Q u o t e:
It seems like a minor thing, maybe, but it's the little things that can break a great game.


I don't think it's minor at all, character builds and customization is a HUGE thing, and it's important you be concerned with it. It's important that we be concerned with it, and customization and differentiating one person from another is a pretty big deal. Being able to try different things with the same class is a pretty big deal.

At this point someone brings up that respecs are going to ruin wanting to replay the same classes over and over again, and you'd be right, if we weren't already thinking about it and potential solutions.


Q u o t e:
By shifting itemization focus slightly from more unique and compelling stats like +skills, crushing blow, open wounds, resists, faster cast rate, etc, it puts too much emphasis on stats, as they were already important in itemization before pre-allocated stats.


Hrm, I'll have to talk to the designers about this but I think you might taking a little bit too much Diablo II experience and overlaying it on Diablo III. Itemization and stat distribution and their relative balance of attributes to unique stats (as you put it) is a bit of a stretch at the moment. I'll see what they have to say though.

Hopefully I've clarified something at this point, the error in the article seemed to be a decent piece of many people's ire over the situation so I hope that helped. Now, just to read the rest of the thread... and the hundreds of others that have built up.

[ Post edited by Bashiok ]

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Dragoonwraith
  • USEast
  • 61. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 07:13:48 PM PDT
Bashiok, you do realize that there's been like... eight of these threads, right? There's some really good ideas in there, and there's also a lot of reasoning why this is a bad thing. I think it would be worthwhile for someone from Blizzard to try to understand where players are coming from on this issue, and respond both internally (by reviewing the system in place) and externally (by talking to the players about it).

One of the most important things that players want is to be able to control their gear - with a very wide degree of freedom. Class-specific items can be very detrimental to the ability of players to make the builds they want to make, and that is massively detrimental to the enjoyment of the game for many players. This includes situations where auto-stats cause a specific class to be unable to equip items.

Very thorough discussions of this can be found in various threads.

Things I love about Diablo III
  • Magic Spells - amazing
  • Runes - coolest thing ever

What would stop me from buying this game
  • Over-use of class-based item restrictions
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Demolishman
  • USEast
  • 63. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 07:16:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
tag


what does TAG mean?

is it a weapon of mass exclusion ?
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Dannyjimmy
  • USWest
  • 64. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 07:21:08 PM PDT

Q u o t e:


what does TAG mean?

is it a weapon of mass exclusion ?


im under the impression its like "bump"
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Ghede
  • Europe
  • 66. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 07:59:51 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
How about making a poll on it, bashiok?


No, we need a full investigation. Double-blind testing and controlling for noobs.


Q u o t e:
The best part of waking up is the tears. I drink them instead of coffee now.
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Necx999
  • USEast
  • 67. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 09:36:25 PM PDT
Taking away stat customization should also take the name diablo away from the title.

I don't want the game to force stat. This isn't a Mmo. If you want to worry about hacks and exploits Work on em. But you cannot take this away from diablo.

Diablo's Freedom and Class builds stats skills and gear are like the whole basic purpose of non stop playing and working on your char.

If everyone is running around with same stats and going for the best gear games gonna get old after awhile.

If there is a Hell.. I'll See you there..
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Saintpoopypants
  • USWest
  • 68. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 10:04:29 PM PDT
I am pretty sure Bashiok is just tagging the thread so he can easily look it up at a later time to post a reply..
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Mattyman174
  • USWest
  • 69. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 10:11:48 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
tag

(just so I can find it later when I have time to reply)


Tagging this thread allows him to easily return to it, as he said, "just so i can find it later when i have time to reply".
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Soulmancer
  • USWest
  • 71. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/13/2008 11:31:00 PM PDT
Yes there are other threads... But this one actually offers a strong arguement compromise... Not an outright complaint without a solution. It's well thought out and in depths and gives a lot of solution for debate.

I for one strongly agree with the OP... I compromise or some kind of hybrid system to atleast have some allocation of stat points, even if the auto alocation makes up the majority... A person should be able to determine whether they want to build their base attributes as someone who wants to do a little bit more damage, or have a few more HP to tank better or a slightly larger mana pool.

We don't need full control and all manual allocation, but some would defiently help you to be more unique and specialized if you choose to be depending on your skill template. Not every level 50 wizard should exactly have the same base stats as everyone else. I'd be alright with a 75% auto allocation, 25% manual allocation, through some kind of adaptive system. Rather then our stats all being forced on it. it reduces uniqueness and character customization and specialization so it's not all about items and skills.

A compromise is defiently needed to accomadate both sides of the arguement and make everyone happy. I am against 100% auto-allocation


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Cyro_349
  • USWest
  • 72. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 01:27:47 AM PDT
It is easy to understand blizzards reasoning behind the auto-allocation of stats, it does balance the game more; it means players will be relying on their items and skills more to defeat enemies, and would make pvp alot easier to maintain.

One problem i see with this system (other than if items have stat requirements), is that balancing a game on randomly dropped items is not very effective imo. A player can be more skilled and might have put more effort into creating their character just to be destroyed because another player had gotten an extremly powerful item by chance.

I know this argument is flawed, but if you look at a fight between player from a more strategic point of view, stats customization would be really important.

Not sure if this has been psoted but another possible solution to this problem could be to combine some of the previous suggestions. Have the stats be auto assigned, but allow the player to relocate a few of the stats for a short while after the player has leveled up. This allows players to just play the game not having to worry about their stats, and also allows for people to play their characters the way they want to (I always loved when my caster could tank...)

~Cyro
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Kokoro-xiii
  • Europe
  • 73. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 03:44:37 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Mentioned possible solutions/compromises;

(...)



I'd like to add one more compromise:

7. Allow stats alloation for hardcore mode only. It's not a secret that smart allocating stats in D2 is the key to build a successful HC char. Also, HC players are usually those more experienced Diablo fans and they don't need such facilitations like stats auto allocation which only reduce the game replayability (no more unusual builds, no more item juggling to obtain necessary item requirements, etc).

Regards,
Kokoro

[ Post edited by Kokoro-xiii ]

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Worldmaggot
  • USWest
  • 74. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 04:08:11 AM PDT
Here's a video with Jay Wilson answering questioins at a BlizzCon panel, he touches on the stat issue at about 37 mins.

http://d3db.com/media/video/watch/130E056C-2329-2093-0504-3FFA7016497C

I couldn't agree with him more, and personally I think assigning your own stats would make the game overrall less fun, in time, i could see everyone with cookie cutter stats, and that is never fun.

I do not want to play a repeat on every aspect of D1 and D2 in D3, this change looks like something that can make the game more challenging.

To those of you thinking that this change is going to break and/or destroy the game, i'm sorry, but just like the dark and gloomy mob, you too are mistaken.
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Grenderk
  • USEast
  • 75. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 04:10:03 AM PDT
Ok I thought this up on the fly so bare with me:

Im going to small numbers here, let say you choose your charater, on the creation screen you build them how you want them to look and all that, then you get to choose your stats, will say you have base stats with 5 points that you could add into any area. So let say a wiz base stats were 2str, 4 dex, 2 vit, and 5 mana, or something like that, and you want to make him more of a figter so you take your 5 points and make this, 5str, 4 dexd, 4 vit, and 5mana, then you choose how much you want the stats to increase per lvl. Now with the gear, if you choose to make a wizard str base or whatever they will have to suffer with gear maybe not having mana or something like that.... well im running out of time so that my bad compermise.
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Cyro_349
  • USWest
  • 76. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 04:16:46 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I couldn't agree with him more, and personally I think assigning your own stats would make the game overrall less fun, in time, i could see everyone with cookie cutter stats, and that is never fun.



So your saying you don't think giving the players the ability to choose their own stats is a good idea, because in the end the players will end up using the same stat builds...

So what will auto alocation of stats do...?

~Cyro
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Ghede
  • Europe
  • 77. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 04:20:17 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Here's a video with Jay Wilson answering questioins at a BlizzCon panel, he touches on the stat issue at about 37 mins.

http://d3db.com/media/video/watch/130E056C-2329-2093-0504-3FFA7016497C

I couldn't agree with him more, and personally I think assigning your own stats would make the game overrall less fun, in time, i could see everyone with cookie cutter stats, and that is never fun.

I do not want to play a repeat on every aspect of D1 and D2 in D3, this change looks like something that can make the game more challenging.

To those of you thinking that this change is going to break and/or destroy the game, i'm sorry, but just like the dark and gloomy mob, you too are mistaken.


I don't see how auto-allocating our stats will result in less cookie-cutters? As it stands, characters will be more similar than ever with this in place. Furthermore, it completely removed one's ability to try and make a character that is different to the norm for that particular class, as you will be hobbled by stats (try making a melee based wizard without being able to add to your vitality)


Q u o t e:
The best part of waking up is the tears. I drink them instead of coffee now.
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Reddog22
  • USEast
  • 78. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 05:26:15 AM PDT
Rawr!

Items in the demo at Blizzcon did not have stat requirements. Stat requirements on items + auto-stats just doesn't make sense. Players will be able to customize their stats through items.

You won't be planning your character's items out for "end-game" anymore. This isn't D2: LoD!!!!

You will be using randomly generated rare items, so find or trade for those items with the stats you want.

I support the move to auto-stats!
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Worldmaggot
  • USWest
  • 79. Re: Stat points - concerns and compromises?   10/14/2008 06:38:42 AM PDT
Auto stats will make the overrall gave more fair, in my opinion, especially in pvp where I suppose gear and skill will be the deciding factor for victory.

It just seems like a fair system to me, providing all players with a fair playing ground, I guess I do have some bias in seeing this as a pvp issue.

There really is no point for making a inherintly magic wielding class like the Witch Doctor or Wizard into a melee fighter, even if you tried the odds of its melee capabilities would probably seem miniscule to any Barbarian/and or any other unnanounced melee characters' skill. These magic users will also most likely have little to no actual melee abilities, as we can see from the Wizard demonstration this character is obviously a magic nuker - trying to turn it into a melee would almost seem pointless, and probably making it weaker than other Wizards who embrace their natural magic.

I guess I could see where this would affect some RP type of aspect, or you just wanting to modify the look of your character, but to be honest those types of aspects in the Diablo series have been a sub to non existing issue. This is not WoW.

Edit: Another good point in another thread


Q u o t e:
I am glad with the no allocating stats, it means players have to be good at playing, not relying on a calculator. Any hardcore player that is againest that, can't really be that "hardcore".

[ Post edited by Worldmaggot ]

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